Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

I have a Remington 870 Express 12 gauge.

I use it for skeet (and quickly learned the pump makes skeet tough) and have it for home defense.

I have toyed around with the idea of using slugs/sabot rounds for hunting. Mainly because it is another thing I can do with it. Increased versatility.

So, to shoot slugs/sabot, I need either a rifled choke tube or a fully rifled barrel, right?

I'm guessing the barrel is a better solution and more accurate, etc..... Correct or not?

If I go with the rifled choke tube, the sabot and slugs will work ok?

Thoughts, opinions, experiences are all solicited. Also, which sabot/slugs do you like and why?

I'm green ears.

Blorp

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Smooth bore or rifled barrel ONLY! If it has an adjustable choke, do not shoot slugs! Also, some slugs specify rifled barrels only but they are usually the hunting variety. Brenneke shotgun slugs work great in smooth bores.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

What else is there?

Anyway, since you have an 870 it would probably be a good idea to invest in a rifled barrel, you're going to get better slug shots off that way. I have an over/under (which has smooth bores and non-replaceable barrels) and use rifled slugs, but they're not as accurate at using a rifled barrel.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

My terminology was poor, I was specifically referring to a smooth bore with Interchangeable Choke Tube but any other full or modified choke could also be a problem.

A skeet or cylinder choke/bore tube is really what you are after.

My Remington Police Tactical (cylinder choke) will hit man sized targets out to 100+ yards all day long.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Thanks for posting this. I have a 870 riot. Would I need a different barrel or choke to use slugs? I have some shot for practice, some low recoil big-ass shot for home defense, and my bulk preps is primarily slugs. Not real experienced with shotguns and nobody said anything to me about requiring modifications to shoot the slugs.

Would appreciate any feedback.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Slug selection is tricky as most sabot slugs require a rifled barrel for best results, and Brenneke-type slugs do NOT require a rifled barrel but can be more accurate with a rifled barrel. Each shotgun should be tested with the slugs before stocking up.

Slugs should not be fired in barrels with more choke than Modified as damage to the choke tube or barrel can occur. It is best to use Improved Cylinder or Cylinder chokes with slugs.

Do NOT fire shot in a rifled barrel or with a rifled tube installed as the shot pattern will look like a doughnut, and you may end up with soft lead shot smeared into the rifling.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

I'm not a big fan of rifled slug barrels for a home defense shotgun, as it limits you to slugs only. I like a mix of buckshot and slugs for defensive shotgun loading.

As previously said, don't use buckshot in rifled barrels, as it wil destroy the rifling. Rifled barrels are good for hunting only

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

There are advantages to sabot slugs but the cost is really a downer. On top of the rifled barrel cost you now go from $1.99 on sale rifled slugs in a smooth bore barrel to $7.99-$10.99 sabot slugs. That cost is for 5 per box. I hunt deer with sabots out of a rifled barreled single shot. If I had to do it over again I would not go with the sabot set-up just because of the cost of the ammo.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

I assume you have a smooth bore 870 with the Remchoke screw in choke system.

1) You can shoot what you have with a "Cylinder" screw in choke......Cylinder = No Choke down in the barrel......You may have a Skeet choke for the gun.....this is close enough to cylinder to be just fine. You can shoot low cost rifled slugs.....good enough to kill deer out to about 50 - 75 yards.....you just have to try to see what you get at the range....a large factor is the simple front bead sight.....it is the largest factor in not being accurate.....but if you use very good technique and are careful sighting down the rib you can get reasonable shots to perhaps 75 yards...perhaps even a little bit longer.

2) You could buy a rifled choke.....the last little bit of the barrel would have a little rifling....this would help a little bit in improved accuracy. Still have the limited sights of a front bead.

3) Buy a slug barrel. These can be smooth bore with rifle sights......this solves problem 1) described above.......with rifled sights....you now can shoot 75 yards with no problem....perhaps even 100 yards.... You can buy a fully rifled barrel with rifle sights.....now you have a 100 yard gun - if you are a pretty good shot perhaps a bit more.

The ultimate slug gun set-up is to buy a fully rifled barrel with a cantilevered scope mount....this attaches the scope to the barrel....once zeroed in the barrel can be removed and re-installed and keep it's zero. I like a 1 - 4.5X variable power scope....a 2 - 7X would also be nice.....a 3 - 9X gives up too much field of view on the low end and you really do not need 9X ....you will not make that long of a shot. This is now a 100 yard tack driver....better than 3 inch groups at 100 yards. With the proper sabot ammo....you can easily take 150 yard shots....perhaps even out to 200 yards with some of the ammo that uses a light weight bullets.

If I was going to buy an aftermarket slug barrel....just go with the fully rifled with cantilevered scope mount......I posted a killer deal and link to a dealer in MN that had Hastings Barrels for just $129 the other day (Remington would want $250) and the Hastings barrel is legendary for accuracy/quality. Add a reasonable Bushnell 1-4.5X scope for $100.....for less than $250 you will have one of the best slug guns money can buy.

I'll look for that link and edit it in here:


http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=339193

Or, just get some simple rifled slugs and use your current barrel and restrict shots of 50 to 75 yards......which is fine inside a woods.....cost you nothing but a box of slugs for $4.

I use the rifled slug/scope combo....since I hunt on the edge of a field.....have longer shots. Killed an 8 point Michigan buck 2 years ago - 100 yards....nearly straight on facing shot - right through the heart. Ran 15 yards and dropped dead.

I like Remington "Buckhammer" slugs....super powerful.....tons of recoil....unreal accurate out to 125 yards....though I would make a 150 - 175 shot. These will goupd 1.5 inch at 100 yards. They are not very aerodynamic and drop is a real problem at 125+ yards.....175 yards requires 2 feet of hold over with a 100 yard zero. Where I hunt 150 yards is a maximum field of view.....so it is the best slug for my use. These buckhammers are crazy powerful......I've shot high power rifle my entire adult life....these have about 2X the recoil energy of a 30.06.....right up there with African Big Game rifles.....remington only has 2 commercial cartridges with equal or more recoil....the 416 Rem Mag and the 458 Rem Mag. I'm a big boy and in the summer with a t-shirt....can't stand more than 5 or 6 shots.....you will have a massive green/purple briuse even after a few shots....at shot #5 it starts to hurt.

Hornady makes a slug called an SST I think.....uses ballistic tipped pistol bullets.....this is a 200 yard capable slug if your barrel, sights, hold and skill are up to it.....

Slugs are a lot of fun.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

If you end up getting the rifled barrel, use sabots only.

Please do not use sabots in the smooth bore barrel. Use rifled slugs instead.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Rifled slugs don't go in a rifled barrel. Smooth bore don't go with sabot? :confused_ma:


how do you knwo if your barrel is rifled or smooth?

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

SABOT SLUGS........REALLY NASTY STUFF WHEN IT MAKES CONTACT

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d6...Terminator.jpg

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Make sure it is unloaded......open the action....stick a piece of white paper in the action.....shine a light on it and look down the muzzle of the gun.

When you are looking down the barrel if it is a smooth cylinder like a tube = it is smooth bore. If it has corkscrew cut features then it is rifled.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

http://www.remington.com/products/fi...gnum_combo.asp

I have the 870 combo (two barrels) from remington (link is above).
Below is a picture of the gun with the 20inch rifled barrel and a surefire weapon light. It does not looked tricked out but it is effective.
If you're gonna hunt with slugs I recommend you get a rifled barrel. On the right of the gun are the slugs I recommend you try, if you get a rifled barrel. Be prepared to get kicked :yes:

http://goldismoney.info/forums/pictu...&pictureid=281http://goldismoney.info/forums/pictu...&pictureid=271

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

My brother asked me to mount a scope and sight in a 3" 12 ga slug gun that he had bought for a hunt in some State where you have to use such things. The scope wouldn't hold point of aim under the pounding and I ended up with 12 or so shots off a bench. YOW!

My Benelli home defense piece will handle up to 3-1/2 inch shells. I don't wanna shoot them.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...shotshells.jpg

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

The reason the slugs have so much recoil is simple physics......conservation of momentum: Mass Projectile x Velocity Projectile = Mass Gun x Velocity of Gun.

The big driver here is the massive projectile at a still impressive velocity.

A 12 ga slug and a 30.06 both have nearly 3000 ft - lbs of energy (that is enough energy to lift a 200 lb man 15 feet in the air.....very powerful!)

Let's use the 2.75" 1.25 oz 1550 FPS "Buckhammer" slugs by Remington......1.25 oz = 547 Grains! That is 3X the weight of a heavy 180 grain 30.06......3X Baby!!!!! And the 1550 FPS velocity is still 57% of the 30.06 at 2700 FPS.

So a Buckhammer and a 30.06 have the same energy.....but in the momentum department, the slug has 547 x 1550 = 848,000 vs 30.06 at 180 x 2700 = 486,000........848,000 / 486,000 = 1.75X

The buckhammer slug will give 1.75X the recoil if the two guns are the same weight.

So, when you think of high powered slugs.....think of shooting a double barreled 30.06 with both barrels firing at the same time!

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

I am glad you understand the physics.


In other words that bitch will kick you!

I am 6 foot 240 lbs.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Exactly what I said.....without the make you dizzy numbers.....

The day I sighted in my 870 Remington with buckhammers......I mounted scopes and sighted in 4 other guys deer rifles.....I'm the "gun guy" so i seem to get these kinds of requests.....

I could shoot those 30.06 rifles all day long.....but by the 5th shot with the buckhammers....I had to get a sand bag used on the shooting bench and put in between my shoulder and the shotgun...

After the first shot, I inspected the gun - thinking I broke it....I thought I had an obstructed barrel and blew it up or something.....i had shot slugs in the past...but nothing like this.....

When you shoot the buckhammers under the covered shooting bench ....it looks and feels like a little howitzer going off......you feel it on your sinus cavity and a ball of flame roars out of the end of the gun.

Not for the faint of heart....buy a box for $12.....it is the most powerful shooting experience you can have short of a few African big game guns.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

The physics aren't too hard to understand. Every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction. If a 1-1/4 oz of lead is going one way at 1550 fps, a 7 pound shotgun is going to try to go about 17 fps the other way. Your shoulder will hopefully intercept the shotgun.

Actually the shotgun will try to move faster because in addition to the 1-1/4 oz of lead ejected at 1550 fps there is also about 40 grains of powder ejected at around 6000 fps. Believe it or not, this adds a lot to the recoil equation, enough to propel the shotgun up to around 24 fps.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

As a young man an engineering student friend explained how when I push on a wall the wall is pushing back with an equal but opposite force. I had to think about that for awhile.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

woot! I actually started a good thread.

Truth be told I was leaning towards spending the money on the rifled barrel, and secretly hoped that you would talk me out of it. hehe

looks like I'll order a second barrel on Friday.

Kick? I kind of like it. I'm masochistic like that I like things that go BOOM and make noise and stuff. Strong like bear! I'm a man! I can take it. :)

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Did some research on my own. What I have a bunch of is Federal LE127RS which is labeled law enforcement tacticLOL low recoil rifled slug. 2 3/4 1 oz 1300fps. I have a standard issue 870 riot which I believe is smooth barrel with regular cylinder choke.

This is a pic (NOT MINE, some kind persons flickr) http://www.flickr.com/photos/wmode/537632993/

EDIT: I looked around this guys flickr and he has some great pron. He probably lives here. I hope he doesn't shoot me for posting his publicly available cool pictures!

One result was this test:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gaugeFedTacSlug.html
Cartridge : Federal Tactical rifled slug (Load # LE127RS)

Firearm : Pump-action shotgun with cylinder-choked 20" smoothbore barrel

Calibration : All Depths corrected (From 9.1cm @ 586 ft/sec)

Single shot fired to center of block from 10' distance. Shot impacted at 1321 ft/sec, penetrated to 14.4" and was recovered at 1.010" average diameter. Interestingly, the recovered bullet resembled a donut in that the center of the expanded slug had split from the main portion of the projectile. This fragment was recovered butted up against the alongside the front face of the expanded slug.

The 16x6x6 inch block, upon being struck with the projectile, flipped 1.5 feet into the air and off of the test stand. Permanent cavity was 6” in diameter, until 10.5” depth.

So all indications are that I am fine with this round and that people that used this round also had good grouping out to 100 yds with a standard smooth barell gun. That's what I was trying to achieve. Need to try some of these out at the range, but glad I won't be blowing my head off or anything.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Oh, and thanks ruprick. Your posts are always quite helpful. The amount of detail and clarity you provided really helped my decision. Headed to the local store to order the rifled barrel now.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

I have a couple questions about the 870 Express.
Mine is certainly a smooth bore, there ain't nothing but a smooth wall all the way down it.
Q#1: Are there 870 Express Models that have a rifled barrel or is that something you have to do yourself?

Q#2: How the heck do you put a choke into a smooth barrel? Seems to me you'd need some threads to screw it into.

Pertinent info: My 870E has an 18" barrel.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Update the thread after you've shot those buckhammers big guy:s9:

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Yep, that would be right. Below is a picture of the muzzle a shotgun with the choke tube screwed partially out to show the fit. To the side is another tube showing what they look like. Notice the markings showing the choke.

I'm glad I got that out of the safe, I haven't used this shotgun in a while and it needs a wipe down.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...choke-tube.jpg

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

My 870E was purchased with the 28" barrel. Remington makes an 18.5" barrel and a few others, including the rifled barrel. The 28" that I have came with a modified choke tube installed. It will screw out and in so you can use different choke tubes.

I don't have the short, 18.5", barrel so I don't know if they have the same setup or if they have a fixed choke. I have considered getting the short barrel an keeping that on the shotgun for normal storage. That would be the barrel to use for home defense and it seems to make sense to keep that one on it unless I'm shooting skeet or hunting. (But the 28" works so the short barrel is a lower priority for me right now...)

Looks like Mossberg and some other mfg.s make barrels which work on this shotgun. Guy at the local shop said he likes the Mossberg rifled barrel better and he will have it next time I come in. Said it costs less too, so I ain't complaining. I like it when they tell me save a few bucks and buy more ammo. :10_1_20:

I already have an extra scope with longer eye relief so that will be a little savings too.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Just to make sure that I have it straight, You cannot put a choke in a smooth barrel, right? I ask because I could interpret your post to say the threads on the chocke cut their own threads into the bore.

As an aside, I shopped out some barrels to make my 870E useful for hunting yesterday and was shocked at the prices for them. I decided I was better off just to buy another shotgun for hunting purposes.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Oh no, absolutely not! The barrel has to be prepared for choke tubes. If you look at my picture, it is obvious that you aren't going to screw that tube into a barrel that isn't drilled and tapped (threaded) to receive it. If you have a smooth barrel, maybe a very good smith can prep it for chokes but better to buy one already prepared.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Thanks, for your time and insight, TomD.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Ok,

Reporting back.

I ended up getting a decent deal on a used rifled barrel with cantilever scope mount and a scope from one of the guys who works at the local gun shop. Scope is NikkoStirling Eurohunter 1.5-6X44

Here is a picture of the shotgun, barrel, and my target from today.

I was shooting the 300 grain Hornady sabot rounds. And yeah, they had some kick. lol

The top two holes were before I adjusted the scope. Penny for reference. Them is some big holes!

I think a couple of more sessions with it and I'll pull my grouping in a little tighter. I wasn't expecting the kick on the first few, now I know. The better shots were my later ones. So, I'm not complaining.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Nice shooting, what was your range?

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

50 yards today.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Shyt Ru I might have to get some and keep it stashed with my "end of world ammo" I when I load those babies up ....... there aint no coming back.


Scary as hell...........but I like it.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Thanks for the report and nice shooting. Let us know if shooting the buckhammers are any different.:s1:

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

I'll try to add some more confusion......

1) Most every short barrel of roughly 18 inches....probably has a fixed choke of cylinder or improved cylinder.....this would be no choke or just a very small amound of choke. When i say fixed choke, I mean that it is a feature of the barrel and cannot be changes or adjusted.

2) Rem-choke is a changable thread in choke feature.....the inside diameter of the end of the barrel comes from the factory with the threads cut.....you just select the choke you want and screw it into the barrel. Just about all manufacturers offer this type of choke system these days.

3) Depending on how thin the barrel is on a fixed choke gun....you can have the barrel threaded to accept a choke tube system....cost is about $140 for threading and 2 choke tubes.

4) Lets say you have a fixed choke of "Modified Choke" (this is right in the middle between the tighest "Full" choke and zero choke "cylinder").....a Mod choke is typical of most general purpose field guns. You can have the Mod choke opened up to a more open choke by reaming (cutting) the choke out.....this is a low cost modification of perhaps $50 to $75. Often guys will take an older Mod choke and open it up to Skeet 1 or Skeet 2 or improved cylinder......and use it for skeet shooting.....and it still works pretty good for bird and rabbit hunting.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Cool, I was wondering what threading would run me. I checked my barrel and it is definitely just one long, smooth tube. It is not choked. I like keeping it real clean because it makes a really cool long reflection of me looking down it. I'm looking to drop the folding stock and put one of those knoxx deals on it. Just need an affordable lighted foreend, now.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

No Buckhammers to be found locally. Just the Hornady and some plain old 2 3/4" slugs. A lot of ammo is flat OUT OF STOCK. :(

Academy was out of .45 LC yesterday. No slugs at all for 12 or 20 gauge.

Big empty spaces on the shelves.

I'm buying in bulk when I find the stuff I shoot on the shelves.

Getting sparse.

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

But later...

I just want to make sure that the less experienced shooters don't get confused and start believing what they see in the movies. No matter how powerful the handheld firearm, it doesn't pick people up off the ground and throw them through windows, etc. The energy numbers may lead you to conclude it is possible but it just doesn't work that way. I've shot dozens of deer over the years with my Remington 700 in 350 Remington Magnum. 225 grain Sierra SP. It kills them dead but it doesn't "throw them 15 feet into the air." Or over the fence or whatever.

If you could somehow "harness" the energy and release it slowly over time, maybe it would work like that. But look at that second quote I put in there. We will assume that block didn't weigh 2-3 tons. But the round knocked it off the table and "1.5 feet into the air." If we believed that a 200 pound man would be knocked 15 feet into the air, then surely a simple concrete block would end up getting blown a hundred yards downrange!

I always crack up in movies when somebody gets shot with a simple .45 ACP and they fly backwards ten feet and through a window! I've shot skunks with a .45 ACP and they didn't even move to the rear, much less being thrown bodily through the air!

Gregg

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Roll your own baby.


:ok:

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

3000 ft-lbs = lift 200 lb man 15 feet in the air....was to simply illustrate the energy content......the terminal ballistics would never do that to a 200 lb target.

What 3000 ft-lbs will do is a lot of tissue damage. Now that I can picture.....a 200 lb man jumping off of a 15 foot ladder and landing with all his energy on a 3/4" diameter flat nosed punch with a long handle.....

The deer I've shot with slugs just tend to fall over....with a big wound channel....

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Does anyone know what the notches mean on the choke.

My screw in chokes have 3 notches.

TIA,

Kiwi

Re: Shotgun slugs/sabot
 

Thanks guys/gals (never know gender on the internet). I re-read this post at work today and felt, kind of, ungracious. Thanks. I don't find my shooting as good as it could be. I appreciate the encouragement. I'm probably my own worst critic on shooting and I felt this was, so-so....

But I appreciate the kudos. Thanks.